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Learning advanced logic

Discussion in 'Dreams Discussion' started by SnowHermit, Nov 13, 2017.

  1. One problem I had with LBP was that only the most basic logic was taught in the game itself. I've asked the community and Mm for good learning resources, and they've all just linked to some YouTube channels or forum threads where basic logic is explained.

    We know that Dreams' logic will be similar to LBP's, so I'm really eager to figure out exactly how game logic works so that I'll be able to realize my dreams when the game is released. I really have no idea how to create complex logic.

    Now I'm hoping that some advanced LBP creators can tell me how to master the game's logic. Should I read books on programming? Should I take a course in Unreal Engine? What do I need to study to get a grip of LBP's logic?
     
  2. BLAHBLAH1000

    BLAHBLAH1000 The advocate for Fuzzy

    Learning to program is overshooting it. I'd try to experiment more with LBP2 logic since it's a simplified version of visual scripting. If you wan't to look into actual programming I'd recommend learning Unreal since it has good beginner tutorials, visual scripting, and very good documentation. This is a lot more complicated than anything in LBP2, but hey, programming is a very useful skill.
     
    SnowHermit likes this.
  3. "Learning to program" and reading about it are two different things.

    The only way to learn is to do. Reading will only supplement the experience that you may or may not have. If you are that interested in learning how to take advantage of the logic toolset, I'd say start with small programming projects, to get a grasp of the fundamentals.

    Look, see and research how these different programming languages implement logic and conditions. Implement what you've learned on your next project. Plan ahead, experiment, break things, fix things. Of course, read about the thing (cycle between reading, research and doing the thing). Sleep on it and let it digest.

    Talk to other people and discuss what you've learned, share what you've come up with. Other people may share an insight or perspective that you may have never thought of, no matter what level of experience they have in the thing you are interested in.

    Just don't settle with watching people do things, or read about doing things. Do the thing. It doesn't even have to be all that grand, as long as you are doing, paying attention, and learning along the way. Small insights and discoveries can eventually add up to something much bigger.

    Oh, and of course do not be discouraged if you are not a "master" right away (or as fast as you'd like it to be). Learning is hard. Learning something new is harder. Learning takes time. The best way to prepare is to simply practice and pay attention.

    Who knows. You may find what you are looking for, before you even knew you were looking for it.

    Anyways, hopefully there's some insight in all that rambling. :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
    BLAHBLAH1000 and SnowHermit like this.
  4. Thanks for your kind answers! But seriously, I really don't know anything about this subject, so I wouldn't even know where to begin. I have tried to experiment in LBP but I can't get anything to do anything. I simply don't understand how to apply all those abstract logic tools.

    I think what I need is an understanding of the way you would create the logic if you only used code. And it should be a code language that's similar to the logic used in LBP. I just don't know what that would be. Suggestions?

     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  5. Learn yourself LOGIC. Logic is basement of EVERYTHING.
     
  6. I'd look into starting with web based language, like JavaScript. All you really need to start is a text editor and a web browser.

    Strengthen your analytical skills. It may seem unrelated, but the parallels are there.

    Also, don't feel the need to rush. Learning is rarely instant. Any planning and practice, ahead of time, will serve you well for future projects.
     
    SnowHermit likes this.
  7. Awesome! Thanks for the advice! :)
     
  8. Download construct 2 engine.. You can create great html based games! there are a ton of visual scripting functions i would say 80% of construct is Visual scripting. drag and dropping of modules and sprites.. its amazing ^+^ The best thing is Construct 3 is all webbased, with the option to download to your device... I say Device because its mobile compatible.. you can dev right from your mobile device ^+^

    Example..
     
    SnowHermit likes this.
  9. SnowHermit likes this.
  10. Yea my advice is also to just go ahead and do things! Why not lbp where the meat and heart of dreams logic will originate from? I dont know if actually learning programming might not be a bit much, since it can be very abstract, compared to the usable, colorful interface of lbp. but yes, both work hand in hand and doing logic in lbp is sort of programming anyway.

    The lbp logic tools are basically child-friendly programming pieces. like lego that just needs to be arranged. only that each piece is actually smart and does certain things. so now its critial to know exactly what a piece does and in what way it works. This will come over time, especially for the advanced pieces.

    these are really essential things! Not just with programming but in a lot of fields: when you break stuff you might get a deeper look into the inner workings of whatever you are working on. Make mistakes to learn which mistakes to avoid later on. I always have to think of this picture.



    What was the best training for me personally was just loading up create mode and asking my friend what she wanted made. It started out with a flying bat-pet kind of thing. But over time it would follow you, then she wanted it to get hungry after a while, and also sleepy. and it had to be affectionate or not depending on how much food and love you give it.. so over time I basically made a tamagotchi thing that needs your attention. I would have never come up with this idea, but just saying to someone 'tell me what to make' can really shift your perspective as you might have to leave your comfort zone and force yourself to learn those 'new' logic pieces.
    This is really my prime example since it wasnt even supposed to get that in depth, but one thing lead to the next and before you saw it coming the circuitboard was full of logic pieces.
    There i also got into the habit of labeling elements, so that i know what attributes something changes, but also so that other potential creators would know which screw to turn to get the desired output.

    Thats close to programming again, since comments are really vital for efficient programming.

    little personal tidbit:
    i was playing lbp before getting a job. and having played around extensively with those logic pieces actually made my time as IT guy less stressfull. since, as mentioned, this is the really barebone basics of programming already.

    Best of luck to you! Its not gonna take long and you will look back at your first logic things and realize how much you have improved over time. so even if its just a little thing you experimented with, save it to have a look at it later. You will feel the progression if you just hang in there!
     
    SnowHermit likes this.
  11. I'd recommend you to start with some simple physics based gameplay...

    As I said in a tweet before, I guess that many of the first dreams will look like Tabletop Simulator games (expect to see many clones of Jenga I'm afraid...)
    I only made 2 levels in LBP2: a sort of labyrinth and another one called "Sjoelen" from the real wooden game (you can google it, it's an old game you surely already played).
    Even if the result is far from perfect (I couldn't set a proper gravity to the pieces and I can't edit it anymore because it's from an old account), the game is still playable and it teached me some really basic logic like how to set some scoring, how to switch from players and the use of emitters...

    If what you want to learn the most is LBP (and Dreams) logic, I suggest not to use too complex shapes and objects and inspire you from something already existing.

    Oh and don't hesitate to regularly rewatch video tutorials from each tool to truly understand its functionnality, for the rest, experiment ;)

    Personnaly I feel the urge to create and reintroduce to the logic tools but I impatiently wait for Dreams because I always felt the 2.5D space from LBP too restrictive...
     
    SnowHermit likes this.
  12. Sometimes the best way to learn and appreciate something more is to do something different. The parallels are there. Many of the necessary skills will overlap. The perspective is just different.

    One could argue that LBP logic was derived from the principles of programming. The main difference being that LBP is represented by graphics, and programming is traditionally represented by text. The logic is still there, and it's all technically programming.  Therefore learning some basic principles by starting with a text based programming language, like JavaScript, will translate into dealing with a seemingly different interface, like LBP.

    I'd say it's also worth nothing that a simple text editor would be much more approachable, and user friendly, than all the demands and distractions that come with LBP and level/game design (which would require much much more knowledge than simply "learning logic"). Learning is not easy, and learning can be very frustrating. I would recommend approaching the task of learning in a way to avoid as many potential frustrations and distractions as possible.

    It's also worth pointing out that strengthening programming skills are much more marketable and applicable to real life solutions, outside of the game.  It would definitely be a worthwhile investment, if one makes the commitment. As I've said before, the parallels are there, but I don't see too many employers being impressed by seeing LBP on your resume.
     
    Nikidan and SnowHermit like this.
  13. I really appreciate all the thought and advices, folks. Thanks for sharing them with us!
     
  14. The first thing you need to know is that LBP logic is not the same as a high-level programming language logic.  LBP does a LOT of work for you, and if you're interested in learning how to get good at LBP's logic, there's no reason to learn to CREATE LBP's logic.  I watch a YouTube channel for a guy that works for EA making game engines, and his advice was that if you want to make game engines, build a game engine.  If you want to make games, use someone else's game engine.  That's essentially what LBP is in the respect of making things.  There's no UE4 in LBP.  There's no C++ in LBP.  Learning those won't help you directly in LBP.  Learning UE4 doesn't directly teach you logic.  Learning a high-level programming language doesn't directly teach you logic.  Logic does underpin both of those, so if you do learn them, you'll also ostensibly learn logic, but if your core mission is LBP logic, learn LBP logic.
    I made some videos on Youtube specifically about what Mm has revealed about logic in Dreams, and I can tell you they've said little.  They mentioned that it would be an extension of the logic in LBP series, but who knows what they've been up to in the last year.  I know a lot of people are interested in the logic aspect being significantly more robust than LBP, but we'll have to see if they say anything about it next month.
     
    SnowHermit likes this.
  15. Hi all,

    Just checking in.

    Anyone made any decisions or new discoveries about learning programming?

    Me personally, I've decided to take on a personal learning project and learn some React.js, so I'd be learning things along with you all.

    Anyways, if you're looking into something yourself, share your progress and discoveries with the group. It would be fun to start some discussion. :chill:
     
  16. After my exposure to Project Spark, I decided to take programming classes.  I've done stuff in Javascript, Java, C#, C++, and also Qt framework.   I haven't done much programming lately because I've been focused on the math classes I have to take to transfer from my community college to a 4-year university.  Just now finishing Precalculus, and will be starting Calculus 1A in January.  Have to take 3 Calculus classes before I can transfer.  I'm hoping to get a chance to do some real work in UE4 over the winter break and kick the dust off my C++ skills.
     

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