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Logic Speculation and Implementation in Dreams

Discussion in 'Dreams Discussion' started by A Blue Banana, Dec 6, 2017 at 10:28 PM.

  1.     With :psretro:PSX only being days away, :mm:Media Molecule has left hints as to what they will be showcasing in their upcoming presentation of Dreams.

        It has personally been quite awhile since the last time I have delved into LBP2 and LBP3's logic systems but it is to be speculated that Dreams will borrow and improve upon previous logic implementation of their past titles. I'm not a logic wizard and in fact have barely scratched the potential surface of these systems in previous LBP games. What logic systems from previous Media Molecule games do you think need a complete overhaul, slight tweaking, or even should I say be abandoned?

        I'm personally curious about Media Molecule's approach to logic and music creation in Dreams. Music creation in LBP2 and LBP3 always seemed daunting for me because of it's presentation. Presenting notes on an actual virtual music sheet or in accompaniment with a piano for scale could make creating music a more approachable and translatable experience for new creators and seasoned veterans.

    And of course please do share your own logic ideas or features you think should be included into Dreams at launch or in possible future updates!
     
  2. The way you colored your text is adorable


    I'm really hoping that Dreams's logic is easy enough to get into and that the logic pieces and tools doesn't involve much numbers. I'm a pretty imagetic person so numbers at the whole game would basically kill it for me.
     
    Yonderland likes this.
  3. Thank you! And yes I see where you're coming from. I always remember LBP2 and LBP3's menus being very numerical heavy when it came to velocity and the such. I think it is important but there's always room for improvement. Maybe visualized or more clear explanations for what changes in each variable. If you've seen the menus that manipulate walking animation cycles on bipeds for example in previous Dreams streams I'm hoping we'll get more menus similar to this for logic as well. It's more tactile and organic to work with.
     
    Yonderland likes this.
  4. the logic and music will hopefully be a big improvement over what we had in LBP2, i know Bonnell7 made a few threads on logic he'd like to see in Dreams here a few years back. he did some pretty crazy stuff with logic in LBP2
     
  5. It will definitely be interesting to say the least. The fundamentals of complex music making usually require some knowledge of general music theory and of course creativity. I'm wondering how fleshed out MM will go with tutorials this time around considering LBP3's logic tutorials outside from Popit Academy were extremely frustrating (even though they really had nothing to do with it). Otherwise we'll just have to see where it goes and possibly rely on the community to flesh and explain their personal music creation methods and what is possible.
     
  6. "Happy accidents" In logic!
     
    A Blue Banana likes this.
  7. "Beat the devil out of it!"
     
    Yonderland and ChefGino like this.
  8. I have some ideas for music and animation that I wish could be someday in Dreams:mm:
    For music I (I don’t know if it’s even possible) that players can whistle a melody into the controller mic, and the game identifies the notes to create the music sheet. Allowing then players to preview instruments with the melody and choosing their favorite. That or humming haha:disc::omg:
    And for animation, acting our characters movements (like mocap in movies). For games like Just Dance I know the camera can perceive some depth differentiating between users shapes and background, so maybe it’s possible:dance::PS Move::PS Camera:. And if not, letting players choose different body parts (example both hands of the character) and record the hand and arms movement of one scene. Then selecting the character head and animate it separately, then mouth, eyes, etc. So we end up with very precise animations.


    Those methods are the most intuitive and user friendly I can think of to make music and animations, they are fast and for everyone. And I think Mm wants exactly that, to help those who are very talented musicians or artists to try Dreams and feel they can create great things.
     
  9. I like the proposition of motion capture through the ps move camera. As far as we can tell gestures are mainly captured through the ps move remotes and/or dualshock 4 controller. Seeing that LBP2 used the eyetoy for video capture and voice recording it would be interesting to see some aspects of even basic video editing. Though the likelihood of this is rather slim it's interesting to see where it could possibly go.
     
  10. Cosheeta

    Cosheeta Some kind of title

    I actually would like more numbers, at least logic that allows for basic maths like counting and comparing variables. While LBP almost had this with it's 'activation scale' and stuff it was very hard for me to grasp and especially hard to add or subtract

    But but, the more Mm can base the game upon a 'preforming' kind of creation style the more approachable I suppose it will be for everyone to play with
     
    BLAHBLAH1000 likes this.
  11. QuietlyWrong

    QuietlyWrong Waiting for sleep

    Mm have said in the past that they'll be building on the logic from LBP2 but improving/fixing it. I'm curious to see how recognisable the elements are and how intuitive they are. I'm one of those evil numbers guys myself - as would be anyone trying to build anything quite technical, like reproducing arcade games of old, because there you need some real precision - sliders just wouldn't cut it on their own. But anything that makes things easier for the less-mathematically-inclined is always good. I once tried to document the counter and timer from LBP2 and the number of different ways to configure them to get different behaviours was quite surprising, and that's just on their own. Put them into combination and chaos ensues.

    If there's one key thing I'd like to see, it's about the speed of working on complex chips. I think the biggest problem for me was all those wires. When you've got dozens of components, each little addition or movement would cause the game to stop and recalculate all the wires on the chips, which would take increasingly long until it was an insufferable delay.

    I was very proud to get a seedable random number generator working in LBP2 but the effort kind of killed the rest of my project for me. If I went back to it now, I'd just put all the chips and logic parts onto a big chunk of cardboard and only transfer them to circuit boards once everything worked. It would have been much easier to wire everything together in the long run. You learn your lessons very late sometimes. So yeah, a better design interface would be nice. Maybe a proper standalone pop-out visual 'logic code' editor.

    But mostly, I just want to see! Two days to go!
     
  12. You are most definitely right when it comes to the complex wiring aspect of LBP2. Deconstructing various complex microchips to see how they work were somewhat of a hassle,especially if you move them with the potential risk of breaking it somewhere down the line. I'm curious to see what would be possible in terms of RPG gameplay. The inclusion of logic that displays a player hud's for example would be pretty sweet considering it was a scrapped logic concept by sumo in LBP3
    .
     
  13. Oh yes lets fantasise about logic again! :D

    first of all:
    thats some lovely formatting!

    That actually had me thinking of THE one humming game per se: Singstar!
    Sure, you had to use the original singstar microphones in order for it to recognize your key, but that was ps2 days!
    All I know is that smartphones are compatible with singstar now as well, meaning they have made progression in the singing/humming recognition where seemingly ANY mic can be used to, at least roughly, hit the notes that need to be hit.
    This would make an awesome layman music creation tool. just imagine it! (an addictive hit! - t'would be the s%#t)

    I also had the imagination of using the ps cam as kind-of motion-capture tool. all it needs for depth perception (in theory) is two angles, which the ps cam delivers. the question is how precise that would be, and thats where i see the weakness.
    if we look over to the xbox and their kinect system, most of us know how precise it is and what uses it can serve even outside of gaming. since sony doesnt put the emphasis on motion (and depth) recognition, at least as far as i know, the question would be how viable of an option that'd be.
    But I'm confident that - in theory - at least some basic movements should be able to be recorded via cam. this would make your idea of recording multiple areas and then applying them all to a single character/object worthwhile.
    :YO:




    Regarding the numbers vs slider thing: I bet my right arm and left leg that BOTH will be present at the same time. They always emphasize how important it is for them to make it as accessible as possible. so that everyone and anyone can create and tweak things to their liking.
    To accomplish that, they will probably have to simplify a lot of tools. So much probably, that everyone who has an exact idea will find it too limiting, or not precise enough.
    Mister Numerical Value might know exactly what value he wants before he even begins creating. fiddling around with sliders would just cost him precious time. Thats why my idea of the perfect logic system is one where you start of with sliders by default. But every slider also has the ability to accept a value.

    An example that comes to mind is the Hyperion app for smartphones (by no means the only app to feature that, it just crossed my mind). You control everything with sliders, but the appropriate value is always displayed alongside of it. tapping on it gives you the option to enter a custom number of your choice. Making this basically a two in one system!
    very easy and very usable - in theory *cough*
     
  14. I gotta say, of all the things I'm excited to see this weekend, music creation is what I'm excited about the most.  Can't wait to see how it's done.  I hope it's intuitive but deep enough that we can create complex music.
     
    A Blue Banana likes this.
  15. Yeah, I didn't had any problems with the way numbers were presented on LBP2 most of the time. But there were like, people talking about numbers in that battery tool and I basically never understood this part of the logic pieces, even trying to do so.
    In LBP3 this got even worse with the new tools like the wave thing. I stil don't understand how to use those lol

    (and sorry, my english is rusty)
     
  16. Yeah! I remember that LBPVita was exactly like this. God, I love the way LBP'V hud was. It was so organized, but in a cool and easy way to use. I'm pretty sure that LBPV was the best place for me to create just because of that. It was easy to get into, and then you just had to be creative on how you'd use the tools and stuff
     
  17. Other than LBP3's launch being a nip in the bud for me yes the wave tool was confusing. I understand that it's supposed to randomize variables in a "wave" pattern where they would go up and down over the course of time permitted on the chip. Please correct me if I'm wrong because I am no logic expert but it was always hard to see the potential in this piece of logic.
     
  18. As far as we know there may be a more in depth way to capture motion and depth perception in conjunction with VR than solely with the PS camera. Media Molecule themselves said they were hoping to include VR into their game if not immediately at launch then possibly at a later date and time. I've never personally tried Playstation VR myself but with the Move controllers, VR headset and camera there could be a way to triangulate a persons position and depth of field. I'm no expert on this or anything but I wouldn't throw out a possibility until it's proven or not.
     
  19. I think it will still be highly gadget-based, but I also think that enough people have called for variables that they'll include them.  Could be something like blueprint in UE4, where a variable is basically a gadget with an input and an output.  You just have to hook it up in sequence the correct way to change it and receive the output.  Since it would be a new gadget in addition to the extant system, you wouldn't HAVE to use it if you didn't want to/weren't comfortable.
    I think that's really the key to this type of platform: making it accessible, but giving the option of power to those that want it or want to learn it.
     
  20. The concept is based in trigonometry.  The basic gist is that as you go around a circle, your sine and/or cosine value(s) will oscillate between 1 and -1.  You can use that for anything that you want to vibrate in some way. That could be a relative to a position in space, or a color, or what have you.  A more mathematically complex version is linear interpolation, which is used all over the place in video games.
     

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